How do you become a full time musician ?
I sat down with Jelly Cleaver to learn about her first year of becoming a full-time musician. From garlic bread to jams to skills audits there is a lot you could apply.
You can also listen to the interview
Getting to know Jelly’s Journey….
Hillarynx
Let’s get to know you Jelly, what do you do ?
Jelly Cleaver
So I play guitar and bass, and a bit of keys. I'm a composer, singer, songwriter, producer a DJ. I used to have radio shows, I put on events, I run bands, I do workshops. So kind of a musician, generally. Jack of all trades.
Hillarynx
So I'd love to know what sparked your musical journey as an artist, and how was that transition into becoming a full time musician?
Jelly Cleaver
I started playing the guitar really, really young, because my dad was a guitar teacher. But where I grew up (Southampton), there wasn't really much musical infrastructure that I knew I could access.
So I was writing songs and took part in open mics. I wasn't really able to do my types of music until till I came to London after Uni. I started meeting more musicians who are a bit more like minded, tapping into the Jazz scene, which I think is really kind of open to different genres.
Hillarynx
What was the thing that really helped with transitioning from full-time ?
Jelly Cleaver
But it took me a lot of years to be financially stable. I actually quit my job in March 2020. And then, obviously, the pandemic happened, I had to unquit my job, which was tough moment for me.
I found employment through all the all the COVID years and then April 2022 was when I was finally able to revaluate and leave the 9-5. Most of my income is from live gigs, which lockdown prevented me from doing. All I had was the next two months in terms of music income to pay my rent. I had a little bit of savings - well if I am literally stuck that I have like enough to cover even moving out of London, or me covering rent for another month until I can get another job.
I was very much trusting in the universe kind of thing. I mean, that's maybe not for everyone. So that was that was kind of a very risky decision, but I was just very confident in it because I just knew that the situation because the other way of working was just not working for me. I was too anxious, too stressed I was completely burnt out.
I gave in a month's notice once. My last boss was amazing and really supportive with the move. Within a month of leaving I got an artist residency, which is one day a week which kind of actually discovers my rent most of most months. Also got a residency, which allowed me to like travel to Brazil, and make music there.
Since then I basically got lucky, every month. I'm just hoping at some point that it just becomes sustainable or if not, like, I kind of make peace with the fact that it's not. Because times are tough cost of living. There is absolutely no shame for musicians who hop out of the hustle because, or, like, get a day job or move out in London, because it is so tough. And you are always kind of against it. But you know, I've done it for a year - it’s so short comparatively, like I'm still learning massively, like every month there is a new challenge, you know, like, you contracts, regular bits, and then you've got the summer holidays, but then you've got festivals and then you've got teach it you know, there's, there's all these things you're juggling.
I really would encourage people to have a community. I'd also encourage people to have faith. Sometimes opportunities, and income comes in so late notice you have a month, but you're not earning it. And then within that month, you get the odd gig here, there, which makes up the shortfall, but you don't know as you go into it.
And I would encourage people to always apply for things you never know, you get better applying as you as you do it, you can run the language that they're looking for.
I've been quite comfortable, moving between lots of different things, you know, like DJing, or being a workshop leader, kind of having these different skill sets.
I would encourage you to a little skills invoice for yourself ..
I'm really good at doing accounts
I'm really good at organising people
I actually really doing try doing social media.
I have really good skills in event production - so I'm going to manage this persons tour.
There's jobs in that ! You can do it for other artists and help them.
Know yourself and know your why. There is actually a lot of money in music we just need to be very like savvy about it.
Hillarynx
For transparency, how much financial responsibility relies on your shoulders? The reason I ask this question is because like, you see a lot of videos be like, “Oh, my I saved for a house, and I've now bought it”…. But it's like you had the safety and space to live at home and your parents supported your deposit. Positioning yourself as giving advice but you didn't have as much responsibility as others that you're trying to engage with.
So yeah, feel free to disclose what you feel comfortable sharing.
Jelly Cleaver
I really like this question, because it's something that I and my housemates talk about all the time. Because I think it's never talked about in the London scene that 99% of every musician is funded by Bank of Mum and Dad, and those who aren't live at home. So they don't have to pay rent, or maybe they contribute to their family mortgage, or don’t even have to worry about food.
I wish housing was an aspect in funding applications - you know, all this is huge. We talk about you know, all the jazz scene being in London, and that being bad, and we should build up other other communities and stuff. But especially for women, and especially for people of colour, there really isn't much of a community, a jazz community outside London. There aren't as many opportunities where people do come here at vast expense if they are not, if their family isn't from here. And so it is frustrating that all the funding is greyed out, and that people who have come here don't have access.
When I came to London, I had to get a full time job and do music on the side. I was able to reduce my hours to three days a week by living, hand to mouth and yeah, it took me a long time to be able to get to a point where I've had enough income streams, which are insecure. I have a lot of insecure income streams coming in which just about allow me to make ends meet each month. And sometimes there a months and it’s a big stress.
I am very much independent and paying rent in London and not getting any kind of support from the government or anything.
Breaking away from burnout with G Bread
Hillarynx
Thank you so much for disclosing, I appreciate your candour. So how have you been able to navigate practices and norms in the industry? I noticed on your Instagram story you were looking for disability and access support in music.
Jelly Cleaver
So in one of the bands I run, some people have an illness and invisible disabilities, and not even just that, but like, things like mental health or, you know, things like being a woman, pregnancy, it's just never talked about especially in live music.
Generally, for, for musicians, the, the welfare is such an afterthought. And when you are slightly less able, or you you get tired, easier, you have fatigue, or, you know, whatever you're going through, it's just not accommodating.
So as an able, able bodied person - I'm trying to educate myself to reduce my own ableism and support the people I work with. I’ve noticed everyone in music has to uphold this level of being completely able bodied or putting their bodies on the line getting burnt out getting ill.
Hillarynx
Like, is there like, like, what is the community around you that supporting you like with that welfare aspects?
Jelly Cleaver
So for me, I guess I see myself as a very big outsider in the scene for quite a few reasons. I didn't go to music school - I found that very, very challenging in the scene, and especially in terms of not getting work, like not getting work for what I think my ability is, like, I'm just not getting a lot of that work.
This made me a bit more of a hustler. And, you know, I've been very lucky that I've had a certain group of friends, like very close friends around me, you know, most of whom I have lived with or live with, who have been in very similar situations or have similar mindsets - we literally hold each other up.
We have these things called, we're obsessed with G bread, like garlic bread. And we'll be, like, come around for tea bread, and put on some garlic bread, and just talk about what's going on in our lives. Especially like, I have a big community of female musicians. So, you know, being a Woman in the industry is tends to be a bit of a focal point.
You know, a lot of people are juggling, work and music, or kind of day job music, talking about that. You know, talking, but also, you know, hyping each other up, because we're all passionate about things.
I think the music that my friends are making is so incredible. We encourage each other to apply for funding or encourage people to connect with each other. Sometimes the conversations goes to the whole scene needs to change.
Hillarynx
So why did you create Jelly’s Jam ?
Jelly Cleaver
I didn't go to music school, or like conservatoire or whatever. When I came to London, you know, I wanted to get into the scene a bit, try and go to these Jams.
…it's much better now, I think, or maybe I just didn't know where to go back then.
But the first jams I went to were all male, generally quite white. Very, late starts. Very, like ego, ego, ego, you know, if you're not good enough, then you you'll get out like playing like giant steps or whatever, you know.
Hillarynx
Or they play over you when you sing
Jelly Cleaver
Yeah, very much egocentric. I wasn’t at the same level as people who've had years of education and training. And so, you know, I just wanted a place where me and my friends who are kind of also maybe not gone to conservatoire or have had years of training and like that level, could you guys still get our skills up? And like, you know, hone our musicality.
I'm a bit quite random, and I like lots of different music. Originally Jelly’s jams were a night to put showcase and network for my mates and strangers. At the time it was focused on Post-punk, Soul and Jazz. One of my lineups earlier was like Mermaid Chunky, which is like this duo, like you who are just great. They're really like, kind of abstract and quirky. And then I think Quinn Alton, but this stuff at the time was a bit more like Rocky. So, you know, I was just kind of putting together these lineups. And then I thought, you know, it'd be really nice if the band then stayed on and we had a jam. And so it's that it started to be like two acts and a jam. And then there's the lockdown.
So I made it into like a radio show tried to promote emerging music people who haven't got any radio play. And then, and then end of Lockdown - I just wanted to do a jam. I still try and kind of make it a bit different because you know, I want make the space unique. So I try experimenting with different kind of creative techniques, I want to make it more of a general creative space. We always have pens and pencils and paper there - So people can draw people can write, while they're listening to music. Incorporating audience's creativity into the music to cut down the third wall. We’re all in one space, because you are creating something you can listen more engaged. You might feel more involved, you feel more liberated to get up and dance, you feel more liberated to try and do your first poem in front of people.
I realised recently that most of my friends in the house band, we're often Queer, Femme People of colour. So I am being more explicit about that now, because those communities do tend to be put off from the Jazz scene as well, because it is less of that. And I'd be like, No, there's a space that you can come to try stuff out. Especially if you don't have that Jazz background, but you do have a music background or a spoken word background, then this is like a safe space.
Thank you so much for reading this interview with Jelly Cleaver !
I would strongly encourage you to follow Jelly Cleaver and her band All Day Breakfast Cafe on Social Media and via your favourite DSPs.
Also Jelly’s Jams is monthly so goooo goo - it’s at @jaguarshoes Shoreditch